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September 15, 2020 at 2:51 am #6400benjamintickell53Participant
None of MP’s dwindling passenger car fleet was acquired by Amtrak, but at least five cars were briefly used by Amtrak during the first month or two of transition. As of May 1, 1971, the only Amtrak passenger service on Missouri Pacific was the National Limited, operating from Washington to Kansas City. This train started out with Penn-Central food service cars, but by mid-June and into July or later, these were supplemented with MP diner-coaches 580, 581 and 582. Two Budd 64-seat coaches were also used during this time, MP 466-467. The diner-coaches were replaced with four ACL Pullman-Standard (built 1950) diners in approximately August 1971. MoPac’s last E units worked a few months longer before also being released by Amtrak.
Does anyone have photo coverage or any other documentation of the passenger car usage? Did any MP dining car personnel go over to staff the National Limited diners?
Bill Pollard
September 15, 2020 at 12:56 pm #9951Bud MossParticipantI missed the early transition from the MP to Amtrak, and did not start taking photos until the summer of 1972. Amtrak’s National Limited at that time was a mix of PC and UP equipment, with PC power. It was a very unattractive train, but that wasn’t Amtrak’s fault. They were doing their best with what they had. Jerry
September 15, 2020 at 11:22 pm #9952Reed HartfordParticipantMoPac’s Slumbercoach “Southland” was reportedly turned back to Budd in the 60’s and picked up by the Northern Pacific who renamed it “Loch Tarbert.” Amtrak later picked up the N.P. fleet of Slumbercoaches including “Loch Tarbert,” so I guess this is the closest MoPac came to having any of its passenger cars regularly utilized by Amtrak, indirectly via the N.P.
September 16, 2020 at 12:30 pm #9604benjamintickell53ParticipantThat is correct. The MP slumbercoach had been leased from Budd, and at the conclusion of the lease, the Jenks influenced passenger department turned the car back to Budd rather than purchase it. The Washington DC-San Antonio slumbercoach line was discontinued on May 16, 1964. The car went to Northern Pacific, then Amtrak, and now resides at the Museum of the American Railroad in Frisco TX. A few years ago, the plan was to restore the car to its Amtrak identity, since that required the least modification of interior upholstery, etc.
Bill Pollard
September 20, 2020 at 2:17 am #9958Reed HartfordParticipantBill, I found your initial post quite interesting. I was living in southern Illinois at that time, and saw the “National Ltd.” during the period in which MoPac cars were operating. However, I don’t recall seeing them in operation — it would have surely registered with me to see MoP cars in Amtrak service. I did see and photograph the MoP E units operating on the “National.”
September 20, 2020 at 2:30 am #9959benjamintickell53ParticipantI received the information from someone who observed the MP cars on the east end of the run. We are not certain how many times the cars ran, but apparently long enough for all three of the diner coaches to be added to the equipment cycle, replacing some of the PC diners. I have not pulled out a 1971 timetable to see how many sets of equipment were required for the National at that time. The “normal” arrangement was for the westbound train arriving in KC in the evening to turn back as the eastbound train the following morning, so I think it may have required at least 4 sets.
When you saw the MP E-units were they operating on the MP, or on the PC?
Bill
September 21, 2020 at 7:28 pm #9960benjamintickell53ParticipantUpon further investigation, much of the MP passenger car usage by Amtrak is documented by Fred Frailey in Zephyrs, Chiefs and Other Orphans, pages 48-49.
According to Frailey, Amtrak was desperately trying to replace the failure-prone Penn Central cars with anything non-PC. On June 25, 1971, MP coaches 466-467 and MP diner coaches 580-582 were placed in service. Sample consists for the three sets of Washington-Kansas City equipment in July 1971 were as follows:
2 E units
Baggage: PC 9165, PC 9145, or PC 9196
10-6 sleeper: UP 1407, PC 4334, or PC 4334
64-seat coach: MP 466, PC 2950, or MP 467
diner-coach: MP 582, MP 580, or PC 4545
10-6 sleeper: UP 1421, UP 1408, or UP 1410 (on at Harrisburg, to/from NYC on #40-41)
44-seat coach: PC 3002, PC 3004, or PC 3000 (on at Harrisburg, to/from NYC on #40-41)
An additional coach, 10-6 sleeper and storage mail car operated Washington to Harrisburg on #30-31 and were then switched to #40-41 at Harrisburg to or from Chicago.The MP diner-coaches (and presumably the MP coaches) were phased out in mid-August 1971, replaced by SCL 36-seat diners 5953, 5957 and 5958.
Bill Pollard
September 22, 2020 at 1:55 pm #9961Bud MossParticipantHi Bill Thanks for this information. I note the UP cars were pretty popular with Amtrak. They seemed to be some of the best cars Amtrak inherited, along with SP and Q. Jerry
October 18, 2020 at 3:11 am #9974Reed HartfordParticipantBill,
I only saw the MoP E units operating on the MoPac proper. I never saw them east of St. Louis. A couple of photos are attached.
Jeff P.October 19, 2020 at 5:20 am #9980benjamintickell53ParticipantThanks for sharing the photos. I wonder if Amtrak was just short of power and briefly used the MP E-units, or if MP quickly tired of the mechanical problems with the PC locomotives and insisted on using their own power which had received better maintenance along the way.
Bill Pollard
October 21, 2020 at 1:38 am #9983princessclyne69ParticipantI have photos of the 39 and, I think, the 40 during the week before Christmas 1971 on the National. Don’t have photos to show it, but I believe the MP units took over at St. Louis from PC power. The 41 also shows up in photos that have been published. I don’t recall seeing any of the other units.
By the end of MP operations on May 1, 1971, I believe only the 37 through 43 were still on the roster. Some of those units could have been out of service, though, because the only ones that seem to show up in photos are the three mentioned above.
RG7
October 22, 2020 at 2:30 pm #9986Mike VanaParticipantI’ve had former MoPac employees swear up and down that when Amtrak was formed, most of the money appropriated went to shore up the Penn Central and that was the major intent all along.. Their motive power and rolling stock were in terrible shape but Amtrak kept pouring money into PC in an attempt to stave off the inevitable. The ex-PC e-units on the National Limited were always failing west of St. Louis.
October 28, 2020 at 2:00 pm #9992alexortiz25ParticipantWhile cataloging boxes at the MPHS archives this week I came across a company letter from John German dated May 3, 1971 mentioning that “On April 29, we submitted proposal to Amtrack (sic) on sale of 127 baggage cars, 14 coaches, 7 snack bar coaches and 7 locomotives.” The 7 locomotive count would match Ron’s info of 37 through 43 still on the roster.
The letter also noted that as of May 3 “Two of the E-8 locomotives were in work train service and five are being leased to Amtrack for St.Louis-Kansas City passenger service.”
@mopacfirst wrote:
By the end of MP operations on May 1, 1971, I believe only the 37 through 43 were still on the roster. Some of those units could have been out of service, though, because the only ones that seem to show up in photos are the three mentioned above.
RG7
October 30, 2020 at 3:58 am #9994benjamintickell53ParticipantThe remaining passenger cars in service as of March 1, 1971 (per the 1971 ORPTE) included the following:
Coaches: 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411. Also 465, 466, 467, 468, 474. This is one more coach than referenced in the J.G. German letter.
Grill coaches: 561, 562, 569, 570
Diner coaches: 580, 581, 582Bill Pollard
October 30, 2020 at 9:57 pm #9998princessclyne69ParticipantThe instruction car 20(1st) had been built from one of the parlor cars bought by MP from Pullman. I believe in 1970 it was retired, and I have a photo of it out back at Sedalia, or a car that I believe to be this one. Its equipment was transferred to a new 20(2nd) which was modified from one of the three Budd flattop coaches that had been bought for the Colorado Eagle. These cars were referenced recently om the Passenger Car List on a discussion about the California Zephyr early planning. Of these three cars, 465-467, I can say that the 466 was in regular operation on the Kansas City trains, and I have at least a couple of pictures of it. I believe the 467 was occasionally operated, or was at least a reserve car, in 1970-71, and it was the 465 that was converted to the 2nd 20. That may be the difference.
RG7
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