B&O Cascade Sleepers on Mopac

[benjamintickell53]

Originally copied from Yahoo Mopac group from August 2006 by Elvin Klepzig for his Railroad Archive Forums

If anyone has a photo of B&O streamlined 10-5 sleepers Cascade Drive or Cascade Sound, preferably during their multi-year lease to Mopac, I
would be interested in purchasing a scan for use with PowerPoint presentation for upcoming MPHS meeting. These cars were initially used in St. Louis-Wichita service, and later in St. Louis-Hot Springs service.
Bill Pollard

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Bill
Harry Steigmeier published a photo of Cascade Drive in his National Limited book (p24). The photo was taken after the car was returned to the B&O in the ’60’s, but is still in MoPac paint.
Gordon Mott

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Several clarifications:
– The two B&O Cascade series 10-5 sleeping cars were engaged in run through service with Missouri Pacific from 1946-48.
– They suffered from an awkward arrangement, an exposed toilet in every room. It assumes a certain familiarity between travel
companions. Missouri Pacific rightfully thought this unacceptable, and after a major passenger car buy in 1948, provided their own 14-4
sleeper thereafter.
– Despite being lightweight cars, nearly all were used in protect and holiday service on B&O after about 1952.
– these cars were painted by B&O and differ in some details from Mopac paint and lettering practice
– During this 1946-48 time frame, these two Cascade cars were not leased, they were shared with MP.
– B&O documentation has these cars going to Ft. Worth. Wichita? Hot Springs?? Never heard of this from the B&O end.

Two major sources for information on this is Harry Stegmaier’s National Limited book, and the TRRA-HS magazine, Summer 1995 issue, which
devoted the entire space to run through arrangements.
Jim Mishke

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Jim,
Two B&O cars, Cascade Melody and Cascade Drive operated on the MoPac between 1948 and 1961. I assume the car assignments were to balance the 14-4 Eagle cars MoPac had in service to Washington, DC. These two cars were painted in MoPac colors with “B&O” on the letterboard ends. Here are the known car assignments –

B&O Sleepers Cascade Sound and Cascade Drive
Assignments on Missouri Pacific 1948 to 1961

10/31/1948
St. Louis – Wichita
Trains: 19/20 (renumbered 9/10)
Replaced: Hwt 12-1
Replaced by: Hwt 12-1-2-1

8/15/1955
St. Louis – El Dorado
Trains: 1/32, 821/822
Replaced: Hwt 8-1-2
Replaced by: 14-1-2

5/26/1958
St. Louis – Hot Springs
Trains: 7/32, 219/832
Replaced: 14-1-2
Replaced by: 14-4

11/9/1961
Returned to B&O

This is one of them:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo_eagle.jpg
Dick Ryker

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Thank you, Dick. I’m learning things here. The B&O paper trail is silent about this. A mileage equalization arrangement between B&O and Mopac is a sound speculation. It also explains why the photo record has these cars running around B&O in 1966-68 still in Mopac-like paint, well after the cars were supplanted in the run through service itself (ca. 1948)
Jim Mishke

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Jim
I suspect that if you ask a B&O expert you will find that these cars never had a regular assignment after returning to the B&O, hence no justification for repainting them. An interesting aside, however, is that the B&O actually leased SP 10-5’s and painted them in B&O colors when they replaced the last of their heavyweight Pullmans (to Wheeling)! They were lettered “Pullman” on the letterboard but with “S.P.” letters at the ends, just like the cars on the MoPac had “B&O” at the ends. Go figure.
Gordon Mott

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Following up on the usage of the B&O 10-5 cars on the Mopac:

A check of the August 29, 1948 MP timetable (the first TT issued after the Texas Eagles were inaugurated August 15, 1948) shows that 14-4
cars were already in use on the B&O-MP through sleeper route, and that the B&O 10-5 sleepers were already in use on MP’s St. Louis-Wichita
sleeper route. The May 30, 1948 MP timetable (the issue immediately preceding) shows the STL-Wichita line briefly using the newly delivered 14-4 cars. B&O-MP through service in in this context had originated in July 1946, and all MP timetables from 7-1946 until the August 29, 1948 issue show the assigned through cars to be heavyweight cars [8-1-2 cars on the Washington-Fort Worth line, and 8-4 cars on the Washington-Houston line.]

From this information, we can likely conclude that the B&O 8-5 cars were never regularly assigned to Washington-Texas service, although they came into Mopac usage as a result of the B&O-MP through car agreements.

In fact, checking a B&O timetable for 11-23-1947, the only 10-5 cars still on regular assignments on the B&O were (1) a daily STL-Washington car on the National Limited, and (2) a CHI-Washington car on the Capitol Limited, operating every other day opposite a 17-roomette car. Apparently B&O had experienced the same passenger dissatisfaction over open toilets in the bedrooms as concerned the MP, relegating most of these cars to overflow or standby service.

I can find no MP timetable or Official Guide documentation that the B&O 10-5 cars were in use by MP in any fashion prior to the August 1948 usage on the STL-Wichita “Sunflower.” Any evidence to the contrary would be much appreciated. MP timetables verify the car assignments and dates(STL-Wichita, then STL-El Dorado, then STL-Hot Springs) as outlined by Dick Ryker in an earlier message on this thread. MP had no 10-5 cars of their own, so the assignment of the two B&O cars on the MP can be fairly readily determined by a sequential review of MP timetables.
Bill Pollard

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Something I forgot to mention is that these 10-5 cars were covered in RP CYC Vol. 11. The builder’s photo of Cascade Drive (with the ramped-up roof) and the later 1967 in-service photo are both shown on page 86. Prints of the same 1967 photo have been obtained from both Bob’s Photo and Mainline Photos.
Ed Hawkins

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This question may have been answered before, but did these cars stay in B&O paint the whole time? In other words, do we want a B&O blue and
gray and black car? The TRRAHT&S Publication on MoPac Sleepers shows at last one in Eagle colors. I think they were in Eagle colors while on the MP

Second, non-modeling question – these cars must have gone somewhere for maintenance during this period. Did they just go to a Pullman shop
somewhere? Did they end up looking ratty, more so than the average sleeper in 1961? Probably St. Louis?
Jerry Michels

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[benjamintickell53]

Cascade Drive, after its return to the B&O.

[benjamintickell53]

If someone has a December 1956 Official Guide, is the St. Louis – El Dorado Pullman run (southbound in train 1-31-821, northbound in 822-32) listed as a 10-roomette 5-DBR car?

Bill Pollard

[princessclyne69]

First, I’m happy with the bulletin board structure we have that it doesn’t take that long to search stuff, even 2-1/2 years ago.

Now my questions. I have the Walthers model of the Cascade 10-5 sleeper from 1943 that was painted in Eagle colors. Two cars, Cascade Sound and Cascade Drive, were on the MoPac for most of the blue and gray era. There are even some photos of these two, one shown below and another photo in a TRRA society publication I have, although both are the corridor side, shot from the vestibule end.

Even the photo below doesn’t clearly tell me what color the ends were. (Dirt-color isn’t the answer I’m looking for,) I’m going to guess roof gray. The time frame I’m thinking of is late in their service life, although it turns out, according to the Pullman project, these two were repainted in Eagle colors in early 1954.

Was the skirting removed already when they were assigned to MP? Could also have been from 1954.

Ron Merrick

[Author]

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