Mopac 5BR-lounge on Twin Cities Zephyr

[benjamintickell53]

From Yahoo Mopac group, May 2014

In the Summer 2014 issue of Classic Trains there is a photo of a MoPac 5-BrL in the consist of the Morning Zephyr at St. Paul, MN. This seems very unusual as the Morning Zephyr was a coach-parlor car train that ran intact between Chicago and the Twin Cities. The photo was taken in July 1964. So, I can understand extra summer-only equipment, but a sleeping car? My understanding is that the Twin Cities Zephyrs did not carry through equipment and that the trains were not switched in St. Paul.

MoPac had discontinued sleeper lounge service on #1-#2 by 12/60 so the equipment was available for other use. One can speculate that if MoPac did not run the cars and the cars were still leased to Pullman, then Pullman could use the cars as they saw fit.

Does anyone have a July 1964 Official Guide to check the Twin Cities Zephyr?
Dick Ryker

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Dick:
I looked in a June,64 Guide and doesn’t show a slpr-lge,but does show a club lge. Seems like the Burlington Hist Society either had a story on the Burlington’s use of the Mop’s splr-lge’s or there were some pictures of the slpr-lgs ;like the one you saw.I am wondering if the CB&Q were using the slpr-lgs in conjuction with club-lgs on heavy travel days;such as weekends or holidays. I know I have seen a article on them,but can’t remember for sure where.
Tony Fey

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Tony,
Thanks for checking. The use as Club Lounge makes sense. If wonder if they sold the bedrooms as parlor seats?
Dick Ryker

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Dick: If you know someone with back issues of the CB&Q Hist Society Magazine; it might be in there in some issue. I think there was a picture of one the TC Zephyr with a Mop slpr-lge that was used on a picture for the calendar,but I have no idea when or how long ago.
Tony Fey

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I am a member of both the MPHS and BRHS. I have all of the BRHS publications, but I don’t remember a discussion about the MP cars or why they were used. Pictures have appeared in several publications, so this was not a one off event.

I posed the question regarding the use of the 5BR lounge cars to the Burlington Yahoo group about a year or so ago. Little information regarding the cars use was known. The picture in Classic Trains shows the Twin Zephyr with the traditional parlor obs, a flat top parlor and then the MP 5BR lounge. It may have been a busy time for first class seats as the flat top parlors were not used all that frequently. They were rebuilt into coaches within the next year or so.

I will ask the Burlington Yahoo group again if anyone has definite info regarding the usage of the 5BR lounge cars. I will forward any answers that are provided.
Mike Cafferata

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Dick:
Your comments on the operation of MoPac 5 Br/Lounge cars on the TC Zephyr was of great interest to me, and brought back a memory of a document that I had filed away years ago. When I purchased the Eagle Cliff back in 1976, during the initial clean up of the car, a crumpled piece of paper was found way back under the porters seat in the porters section. It was old and yellowed, but what it was is a copy of CB&Q train consists out of Chicago on a certain day. The corner of the document with the date on it was was missing. I guess thay it was from the 1962-65 time line. Under item 8, the MP 640 was to dead head to Minneapolis on the rear of No. 23. So, I guess the question is, were all three MP BR/Lounge cars leased out by the MP or Pullman Co, or was it just the Eagle Cliff?

Also, I have in my collection a copy of “Sleeping Cars of the Santa Fe” and there on page 349 is a photo of the Eagle Cliff at Frenso Calif. in Dec. 1959, operating on the San Francisco Chief. So, I guess these cars really got around. Just for the record, I still own the Eagle Cliff and it is under Lease to the Austin Steam Train, and it is in regular service. It’s a favorite among the other vintage equipment that we operate.
Bert Dockall

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Bert:
Thank you for the interesting comments about Eagle Cliff. It certainly must of been fun to find the consist in the porters section!

The 5BR/Lounge cars had a somewhat checkered history on the MoPac. As you well know MoPac/T&P bought three of the cars (Eagle Cliff, Eagle Ridge, Eagle Canyon). When the West Texas Eagle was inaugurated on August 15, 1948 the 5BR/Lounges operated between St. Louis and El Paso. Three cars were required to make the cycle (as were other St. Louis sleepers). However, on November 14, 1948, just three months after starting service, the 5BR/Lounges were curtailed to Ft Worth and ran in that cycle until July 10, 1961 when the both the 5BR/Lounge and full diner on the West Texas Eagle were replace with a diner-lounge.

So as early as November 1948 MoPac had an extra 5BR/Lounge that was placed in Pullman pool service and could be seen on any railroad. That would account for Eagle Cliff being in Fresno in 1959. With the discontinuance of sleeper lounge service in July 1961 there were three cars assigned to Pullman pool service. I have no idea what cars were assigned to pool service or when. However, I do know Eagle Cliff was on regular service on trains 1 and 2. Based on some dispatcher sheets that I have, Eagle Cliff and Eagle Canyon were assigned to the West Texas Eagle Trains 1/2 between January 17 and 29, 1960. So within one month Eagle Cliff was in Fresno on the ATSF and back on home rails.

I’m certainly glad to hear you still own Eagle Cliff and that it is still in service.
Dick Ryker

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Continuing the discussion of the usage of MP/TP’s three 5DBR-lounge cars, the photo that Dick Ryker mentioned in Classic Trains was supposedly taken in July 1964.

Pullman sleeper-lounge service on MP-TP trains 1-2 (St. Louis-Fort Worth) was discontinued in July 1961 and the cars went into Pullman pool service which included a couple of lengthy assignments on the B&O, the last of which ended in late April 1964. The cars were withdrawn from Pullman lease two months later and returned to MP in June 1964. Usage of the cars in July 1964 and thereafter would be the result of agreements between MP and the railroad needing the equipment, in this case, the CB&Q, rather than random Pullman pool usage.

These three cars were not retired by MP until sometime in 1966 (exact date unknown) so it is possible that they were leased to CB&Q during part or all of that time. Perhaps someone more familiar with Burlington passenger operations can provide more details.
Bill Pollard

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Bill and Dick,
Just some information to add from the on-line Tom Madden Pullman “CCR” list that includes a column labeled WFL, which is the date the cars were “Withdrawn from Lease” from the Pullman Co. Anytime after the WFL dates the cars would have been available for other uses.

Eagle Canyon (T&P) – WFL 6/11/64
Eagle Cliff (MP) – WFL 6/26/64
Eagle Ridge (T&P) – WFL 6/29/64

All 3 cars continued to be listed in The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (ORPTE) in the March 1963 edition with their original car names. Circa October 1963 they received numbers 640-Eagle Cliff, 641-Eagle Canyon, and 642-Eagle Ridge as part of the system passenger car renumbering program.

The 3 cars continued to be listed in the ORPTE as numbers 640-642 (with car names in notes) through the March 1966 ORPTE. The next annual ORPTE edition, March 1967, did not list any of the 3 cars in the MP or T&P lists.

Passenger car disposition notes I obtained from Bill Hoss many years ago denote 640 and 641 were retired in August 1966 along with the 4 “River” series 6-6-4 sleeping cars. The disposition notes lack having retirement information for 642.
Ed Hawkins

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Ed,

Thanks for the August 1966 retirement dates on 640 and 641. 642 was converted into RPO 387 starting about September 1966, which probably accounts for the absence of a retirement date for 642.

I have been unable to determine with any certainty the date when the Pullman Company began turning sleeping cars next day from #2 to #1 at St. Louis, rather than turning them same day as had formerly been the case. If that change occurred before July 1961, then it would have been necessary to bring back the third 5BR-lounge for St. Louis-Fort Worth service. As late as January 1961, the sleepers were turning same day in St. Louis, however, and the two cars in 5DBR-lounge line 3708 were Eagle Cliff and Eagle Canyon.
Bill Pollard

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Bill,
You bring up an interesting point. I did not realize that MoPac had stopped turning equipment from #2 to #1 on the same day. From your comments, I assume you’ve had access to dispatcher sheets from Jan 61. What is the earliest date you can document for the delayed equipment turn? With so many trains discontinued it appears there would have adequate equipment for three train sets. Perhaps the delayed turning didn’t start until 1/21 and 2/22 were combined in September 61. By that time MoPac would have been reducing four trains sets to three.
Dick

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Dick,
My original understanding was that the sleepers were held an extra day in STL, starting at some relatively late date, while the coaches, diner, etc. all turned same day from #2 to #1. The same day turn can be verified on the Hoxie sub train sheets (I believe ??) when cars going north in #2 on one sheet also come south on #1 on the same sheet.

That said, the only car that I can reliably see being held an extra day was the St. Louis – Mexico City sleeper, once that service started. I believe Pullman was a more concerned about totally flushing the water tanks on that car, or perhaps it routinely needed more cleaning because of the longer route. Otherwise, on the random dispatcher sheets that I checked, it does look like all other sleepers turned same day in St. Louis, giving some latitude for shopping, cars pulled out for bad order, etc.

Sorry for the confusion —
Bill

[benjamintickell53]

Earlier thread from Yahoo Mopac group, June 2012

I have seen references that show the MP 5BR-lounge cars being utilized by the B&O between St. Louis and Washington DC on the National Limited. I have also seen pics
of the cars being used on the CB&Q’s Twin Zephyrs. What role they served on
the Twin Zephyrs is unknown to me.
Mike Cafferata

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Not sure what this is on the rear of a GM&O train to Chicago,
http://www.railarchive.net/gmogallery/photo007.htm
Great images by Dr. Leonard’s GMO&O site. Has two or three with Mopac equipment, (baggage on head end).
Dan

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That’s a 14-4, or a 14-1-2, aisle side. I think the aisle sides of these two groups of sleepers were identical.
Ron Merrick

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Its a little unusual to have a MP sleeper on the back of GM&O #4, as shown in the photo link referenced below. In 1957, a 10-6 operated Houston-St. Louis-Chicago and a 14-1-2 operated Ft. Worth-St Louis-Chicago, both supposed to have been carried in GM&O #2 north of St. Louis. On the date #4 was photographed, the west Texas Eagle apparently was sufficiently late into St. Louis that a decision was made to not hold GM&O #2 and instead forward the Ft. Worth sleeper on #4.

With regard to other usage of the T&P 5BR cars… Eagle Ridge was placed in Chicago-Florida service on the Dixie Flagler, operating approximately mid-December 1950 through mid-May 1951, with no exterior repainting.

When these 5BR-lounge cars were used on the B&O, was that after the time that regular usage had ended on the Texas Eagle?

Four surplus T&P 14-4 cars were also placed in the general Pullman pool in October 1949, Eagle Call, Eagle Spirit, Eagle Trail and Eagle Watch. These four cars were repainted Pullman two-tone gray with Pullman letterboards and assigned to extra service on Union Pacific. Two of the cars, Eagle Trail and Eagle Watch, were returned to T&P in November 1950 after being restored to Eagle colors.

Hopefully others can provide additional usage data for these cars as they traveled off line.
Bill Pollard

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I was able to do a bit of digging and found references to both the B&O
assignments and the Twin Zephyr assignments in the TRRA publication #63
“Pullmans to St. Louis”.

On page 24, it is stated that one car was assigned to Ft. Worth-El Paso
until 7/11/1961. While not stated, that hints that the other two cars
remained in St. Louis-Ft. Worth service around that time. Also on page 24,
the article indicates that the 3 cars were assigned to B&O for National
Limited service from 12/1/1962 to 4/23/1963 and again from 5/8/1963 to
4/26/1964. One car, “Eagle Ridge”, was converted to an RPO in 1966 and
the other two cars were retired and sold in 1966.

Page 26 of the same issue references the assignment of the cars to the
Burlington’s Morning and Afternoon Twin Zephyrs. On page 34 of Michael
Spoor’s “CB&Q Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment” a photo of a
MP car is shown in the consist of one of the Twin Zephyrs in July 1964.
Based on the window configuration, it appears to be one of the cars in
question. I have seen other photos but cannot find them at this time.

I will pose a question to the CB&Q group to see if anyone knows the
assignment dates of the cars and what they were used for.
Mike Cafferata

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Mike,

Thanks for locating that reference. I recalled reading of the B&O usage but could not locate the source.

I interpret the TRRA-HS mention of the Ft. Worth-El Paso assignment of the single car to be a brief operation. It would have required a second car from somewhere to fill out the other side of the assignment, since two cars would have been required for daily operation.

Pullman line 3708 was the assignment for the 5BR-lounge cars, initially operating St. Louis-El Paso beginning August 14, 1948, then cut back to St. Louis-Ft. Worth on October 31, 1948.

There was a brief period in 1952, 1953 and 1956 when the line operated only every other day account “shopping”, which suggests that the 3rd car was unavailable for use during that time. Line 3708, still St. Louis-Fort Worth, was discontinued July 11, 1961.
Bill Pollard

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In case this has been missed by others, the MP/T&P 5-B-L was used on the B&O Detroit – Wash,DC… see Dubin’s book on Pullman livery cover.
Alah Hegler

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