Planetarium Dome – car assignments

[benjamintickell53]

An inquiry on the MPHS Yahoo list prompted a discussion of MP dome assignments and changes during the period when these cars operated. The first three cars (from Budd) were originally assigned to the Colorado Eagle. Five additional cars allowed dome service on the Texas Eagle (St. Louis-San Antonio and St. Louis-Fort Worth) and the Missouri River Eagle. When the south and west Texas sections of the Texas Eagle were combined in 1961, the Fort Worth line began operating to New Orleans rather than St. Louis.

In the last few years, dome assignments were somewhat haphazard, often being replaced with a straight coach if traffic so dictated. Can anyone provide specific discontinuance dates for the dome service? STL-San Antonio, STL-Kansas City and Fort Worth-New Orleans lines were all listed in the Official Guide as late as June 1966, but by December 1966, all three had disappeared.

I photographed a PS and Budd dome together at Little Rock coach track in the fall of 1966, an unusual event for domes to be in Little Rock in the daytime. Perhaps these cars were being moved back to St. Louis for storage, but the reason for their brief layover in Little Rock is unknown.

Bill Pollard

[kenris]

Bill –

The latest Guides I have are December 1961 and April 1962. Both still show dome cars on 1/2 (Ft Worth) and 21/22 (San Antonio) south of Texarkana.

Dome cars are shown on Colorado Eagle (11/12), but not on Missouri River Eagle. And not on service to Louisiana.

I did find a note in my passenger service changes data base that on April 23, 1963 MP stopped turning the dome car in Ft Worth. I know the dome seta didn’t rotate, but surely wouldn’t that mean they turned the coach seats?

Dick

[kenris]

Ha – of course I found the others after I post the message!!

March 1963 ColoEagle 11/12 dome cars, MoRiver Eagle 16/17 no domes, Texas Eagle 21/22 dome between Ft Worth and El Paso, 1/2 dome St Louis – San Antonio. Louisiana Eagle does not a dome.

December 1964 (post T&P merger) Texas Eagle Dome St Louis – San Antonio, New Orleans – El Paso,
Mo River Eagle 17/16 dome cars St Louis – Omaha No Colorado Eagle

March 1966 Texas Eagle Domes St Louis – San Antonio, New Orleans – Ft Worth, MoRiver Eagle dome St Louis -Kansas City (Omaha connection was discontinued 9/6/65)

Dick

[benjamintickell53]

That assignment between Fort Worth and El Paso is a new one for me. Its interesting how these car assignments changed over the years, and as others have noted, none of the MP scenery could be described as “spectacular”. Riding the Texas Eagle in the dome at night north of Little Rock would have been an interesting trip, however, until the front windows were plated over.

Bill Pollard

[kenris]

Bill, I wondered about the Ft. Worth to El Paso line as well. Perhaps the T&P ran the Dome to New Orleans but missed inclusion the Official Guide. Some large library may have a collection of them, but it’s doubtful. Perhaps the NMRA library in Chattanooga?

I used to ride the Texas Eagle from St Louis to LR in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s. The summer was nice, but in December there was just a brief bit of twilight before the darkness. However, I always enjoyed seeing all the small towns arrayed with Christmas decorations. Not surprisingly, the trips in December seemed to take twice as long as the trips in June.

[benjamintickell53]

Kevin EuDaly was able to answer the Official Guide question, which I’m recopying here for reference value….

The July 1966 Official Guide shows all three routes with dome coaches
(STL-San Antonio, STL-Kansas City, Fort Worth-New Orleans).

The August and September 1966 Official Guides show only the St. Louis–San Antonio (Texas Eagle) and St. Louis–Kansas City (Missouri River Eagle) dome coaches.

In the October 1966 issue of the Official Guide all MP domes are gone.

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

A parallel thread about dome cars has been running on the Mopac Yahoo page, summarized below to transfer the information to this forum.

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A letter and photo in the Summer 2015 Eagle (page 4)made me realize that I had forgotten about this car even though I recall an article in a past Eagle, which I have been unable to find in my back issues, that gave its history. I have three questions:

1. Is there any current or past HO model that closely approximates this car?
2. Did it run on the West Texas Eagle?
3. What was it doing in Houston (off the T&P) on a regular basis as mentioned by the letter writer in the current Eagle?
Mike Thomasson
Austin, Texas

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Mike, I can answer question 1 about available models. Both MP and T&P domes were at one time or another available in brass, the Pullman-Standard domes in Hallmark’s Texas Eagle run and the Budd domes in The Coach Yard’s Colorado Eagle run. Both were imported a number of years ago, but are occasionally available on eBay or at major hobby shops. T&P 200 is a Pullman-Standard car.
Jerry Michels

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I think there is a specific answer to the question ‘What was a T&P dome car doing in Houston?’

Cars ordered for the Eagle trains, as originally anticipated that they would be operated, were apportioned out as to who would place the order based on their planned operations scheme. Passenger cars earned per-diem, so time spent off home rails would incur charges from the road who had them at midnight to the owning road. The Eagle cars appeared to be balanced in such a way that the average charges owed between MP and T&P would net out to near zero. I haven’t done the calculations to prove this, but this philosophy was also followed by many of the name trains of the forties that operated over several owning railroads.

The planetarium (dome) cars of this P-S order were also originally intended to be operated on specific routes. The Budd cars 890-892 were bought for the Colorado Eagle, and the June 1952 timetable shows a planetarium coach St. Louis-Denver and none on the Texas trains. This was probably right before the P-S order was delivered. That run required two cars, so one was a spare. Perhaps this car was held at St. Louis as a reserve car, but that’s not apparent from only the timetable information.

The April 1956 timetable shows the planetarium coach also operating St. Louis – Ft. Worth, and another operating St. Louis – San Antonio. There is also a planetarium coach shown on the Missouri River Eagle between St. Louis and Omaha. Each of these runs required only two cars. There were five of these P-S cars, four MoPac and one T&P. By this time that meant that every single car of the eight was in service every day, with no reserve car in case a train fell down.

By the June 1960 timetable the planetarium coach is no longer shown in the consist of the Missouri River Eagle. That freed up a pair of cars. No other new routes are shown for them. Also by this time, the allocation of cars seems to be not as rigid as it had been originally, based on photo evidence. So it’s possible that a planetarium car could have come to Houston occasionally, because it was available. The distinct lack of scenery in the Houston area probably did not enter into the decision. And, by this time, the difference between MP and T&P ownership was reduced to a purely academic level, as evidenced by the later renumbering that put all the cars into common number series.

I don’t have enough timetables to track the next few years of changes, so someone else may have to fill in the blanks. The cars are shown in both ‘Route of the Eagles’ and in the IC Color Guide as having been sold to IC in 1967, along with some grill coaches.
Ron Merrick

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I have an April 1965 public timetable for the MP/TP and it shows the following Dome Coaches:
The Texas Eagle trains No. 1-21-41 42-22-2,
Dome Coaches: St Louis — San Antonio (SA-25), New Orleans — Fort Worth (NO-21)
The Missouri River Eagle trains No. 17-16
Dome Coach: St. Louis – Omaha.

As a side note in fall of 1965 my brother was attending college at Baylor University. My parents along with my cousin ML and I went to visit one weekend. We drove out to Waco, Texas and on Sunday drove to Fort Worth and we returned on train #22 leaving the car with my brother so he could drive home for Thanksgiving. We rode in the lower level of the dome coach from Fort Worth to Alexandria, La. I was disappointed that my dad wouldn’t let me go up into the dome to look out.
George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

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MoPac was so erratic on issuing public timetables in the 1960s that there are not enough dates to help identify changes such as these dome car assignments. In the June 1966 Guide, three dome coach lines were still shown: St. Louis-San Antonio, Fort Worth-New Orleans and St. Louis-Kansas City. The Fort Worth-New Orleans line had disappeared by the August 1966 Guide. The San Antonio and Kansas City lines were still present in September 1966, but had disappeared by the December 1966 Guide. If anyone has a July, October or November 1966 Official Guide, perhaps the date range can be narrowed more.
Bill Pollard

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Mike,
Brass Car Sides makes brass overlays for the MP/TP Pullman Standard domes. They are available in both HO and N scale. Here is the web page for Brass Car sides:
http://www.brasscarsides.com/catalog/UPCatalog.pdf
Mike Cafferata

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The Fort Worth-New Orleans line intrigues me. It sounds as if that train was doing good business. I’ve realized that, during the fifties, there were two trains St.L-KC with domes. After they were dropped from the Missouri River Eagle, there still was one pair on the Colorado Eagle, then after that train was cut off, that pair of domes were merely transferred to one of the other KC trains.
Ron Merrick

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For what’s it’s worth, here a picture showing a dome car in San Antonio, mid-60s I think.
Charles Weston
San Antonio

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Charles,
If I read the car no. correctly, 593, this was formerly MP 893 built by Pullman-Standard in 1952.

MP 890-892, Budd Co. 1948, re# MP 590-592 in 1963
MP 893-895, Pullman-Standard 1952, re# MP 593-595 in 1963
I-GN 896, Pullman-Standard 1952, re# MP 596 in 1963
T&P 200, Pullman-Standard 1952, re# T&P 597 in 1963
All sold to IC in 1967.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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What’s even more remarkable is the heavyweight coach two cars down. Wonder if this is the arriving Eagle after the head end cars were pulled. The P-S domes were vestibule rear, so that’s likely.
Ron Merrick

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Good eye, Ron! If it helps, St. Louis is to the right in the pictures, Laredo to the left.
Charles Weston

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> On 10/17/15, GEORGESIMMONS wrote:
> I never understood having a dome coach on a train with only two to three hours of daylight, all in east Texas, I guess it was for star gazing.

I take it you never sat in the dome at night with your girlfriend! VBG!!!
Joe Altnether

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There was a reason, probably several, why the domes were designated planetarium domes. On the Texas Eagle and the Colorado Eagle, much of the trip was during darkness. Only the Missouri River Eagle, which got domes almost as an after thought, had an all daylight route.

In tracking the dome assignments, does anyone have evidence of any consistent usage of the third Budd dome from the 1948 order? Some sources say that only two of these cars were delivered with “Colorado Eagle” on the letterboard, with the third car having “The Eagle.” If that is correct, where did the third car operate? Its not shown in any timetable, as far as I know, but that would be an expensive piece of equipment to simply sit idle.
Bill Pollard

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Consider also the three flat-top coaches bought at the same time. These cars were capable of being converted into divided coaches, so they were presumably intended to be relief cars for Texas Eagle trains. In 1970 I was in one of these cars, the 466, a couple of times and the snaps for attaching the canvas divider curtains were still in place.
Ron Merrick

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Bill,
The 6 cars MoPac bought from Budd in 1948 were alike in that the first 2 coaches (860-861) had Colorado Eagle letter boards while 862 had The Eagle. The 890-891 and 892 dome cars, respectively, followed suit. The Colorado Eagle letter boards were changed to The Eagle during the early 1950s, but I don’t have any exact dates when each car was changed.

Regarding the train assignments for the 3rd Budd dome car 892, unfortunately I don’t have any consist information from the late 1940s. Colorado Eagle data follows that I compiled from consists in May through December 1958 (not all days), about 70 % were eastbound from K.C. to St. Louis. Also provided is the relatively few dome cars assigned to the Missouri River Eagle.

Colorado Eagle (91 consists, 90 having a dome car)
Budd domes
890 – 6 (July 14 – Nov. 18, all eastbound)
891 – 0
892 – 12 (Aug. 20 – Dec. 30, all eastbound)
Pullman domes
893 – 0
894 – 40 (May 4 – Oct. 26, 11 westbound, 29 eastbound)
895 – 8 (Nov. 11 – Dec. 31, all eastbound)
896 – 24 (May 7 – Aug. 18, 13 westbound, 11 eastbound)

Missouri River Eagle (28 consists, 6 having a dome car)
Budd domes
890 – 3 (May 31, June 22, July 27)
891 – 0
892 – 3 (Sept. 27, Oct. 3, Oct. 26)
Pullman domes – no occurrences

I’ve heard stories that require verification that the air conditioning in the Pullman domes was inadequate during the summer months for use in Texas, so the Budd domes were used more-so for Texas trains after 1952 than the Pullman domes that were more frequently assigned to the Colorado Eagle. Does anyone have confirmation about the Pullman domes and if the air conditioning was inadequate?
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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Ed,
Thanks much for the more detailed info on the letterboards, and for the consist information. Based on Official Guide chronology (and those consist listings were not always accurate), the Mo River Eagle had no dome regularly assigned from the fall of 1957 until the spring of 1964. I cannot otherwise account for all dome cars during that time, so assume there might have been a higher than usual shop rate due to A/C problems and/or window leakage issues. When available, one of the extra’s might randomly wind up on the Mo River Eagle as your consists suggest.

Do you have any record of what caused the early retirement of 595? The dome coach website shows a retirement date of 1967, but I though it was earlier than that.
Bill Pollard

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Bill,
I had incorrectly assumed that all 8 of MoPac’s dome cars (7 MP and 1 T&P) went to the Illinois Central in 1967. Attrition information I have for lightweight streamlined cars comes from a list Bill Hoss developed. This data states that in June 1967 dome-coaches 590-592 (MP 890-892), 594 (894), 596 (originally I-GN 896), and 597 (T&P 200 Pullman) were sold to Illinois Central.
Not mentioned in the June 1967 disposition list were dome cars 593 (893) and 595 (895). The 593 and 595 dome cars are shown as “retired” in Nov. 1966 but without any other information about where they went (scrap or sold). These two Pullman domes were only 14 years old at the time.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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I has been interesting to follow the discussion on this topic since I made the initial post a couple of weeks ago. Thanks to all who have chimed in.

To my surprise, I have not seen an answer to a couple of my specific queries and I take that to mean that the information is not available. I’d still like to know if there is any record of dome cars running west of Dallas to El Paso. I take the A/C issue to be an indirect way of saying “No” or at least “unlikely.” I also would like to know about dome cars, specifically T&P #200 being in and out of Houston (off the T&P) on a regular basis as cited in the letter (can’t remember now who wrote it)in the recent edition of Thee Eagle.
Thanks for all the information.
Mike Thomasson
Austin.

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Mike,
I assume your reference to T&P 200 operating into Houston came from George Porter’s comments on p4 of the current Eagle. George scanned many documents, and if he saw T&P 200 listed during that process, then it definitely operated into Houston. That said, thus far I have been unable to locate a timetable or Official Guide which shows St. Louis-Houston dome car service. At one point, MP did not have all of their domes obligated to a particular service, and it is quite possible that the extra domes operated into Houston from time to time as the regular STL-HOU coach, or with special group moves.

Dome service to El Paso has been a little easier to document. Domes operated between Fort Worth and El Paso between approximately February and October 1963 (I don’t have the January and November 1963 Guides, so its possible that this service also extended into those months.)

Dome service between New Orleans and El Paso operated approximately May-November 1964 (possibly April-December… again pending review of those two Official Guides.) Starting in January 1965 and thereafter, there is no Official Guide record of domes operating west of Fort Worth.

This still doesn’t answer all your questions, but perhaps its a start. Thanks for raising the question in the first place – a lot of good discussion has ensued on this aspect of MP-T&P passenger operations.
Bill Pollard

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That makes a lot of sense about plating over the top windows to reduce the strain on the air conditioning units. I once rode in a Budd dome on the old Texas Limited excursion train from Houston and Galveston and back in May and by the return leg of the trip it was getting warm in the dome. And I’m sure the car had a generator powered AC system that was more powerful than what Budd originally applied to the car when it left the factory.

I was looking for photos of the Budd domes in the blue stripe scheme online and found this photo of 890 from around 1964.

http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picMP890c.jpg

From the photo it appears the MP plated over the entire opening for the middle front window, and if the front side windows are plated over (I think they are but the color of the photo is such it is hard for me to tell) the plating appears to have been made to fit in the existing window frame. Do you know how the top windows were plated over? I ask because on the Kato dome the top window frames are part of the clear plastic piece that makes up the dome glass and if the top windows were plated over inside the frames rather than on top of the frames, I think I can simulate the effect with silver paint.

Also, does anyone know if the buzzsaw used in the photo was the same size as the ones used on locomotive cabs? I was thinking of picking up the microscale set for the original Jenks blue scheme to decal the car.

David Shoemaker

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The photo of 590 at Little Rock was taken probably in mid-late 1966. You would have to be familiar with Little Rock, but the coach yards and half the midway is gone (photographer is standing on gravel) and the clock in the station clock tower has been replaced with the red Buzzsaw. All those details date the photo a couple of years after the 1964 date on the original caption.

I cannot answer about the side front windows on the dome. The center front window was obviously plated over, but I think the side front windows might have just been painted over. The buzzsaw size along the window looks similar to the size used under the cab windows on diesels but I don’t have any diagram that specifies the exact diameter.

Bill Pollard

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I have read with great interest the recent posts concerning T&P 200. It is good news that the car is slated for restoration. There is another one of these, number unknown, that is the property of Iowa Pacific, located in the yard at Alamosa, Colorado. It was part of the now defunct Minnesota Zephyr dinner train. This car like the TP 200 needs a complete rebuild. It was trucked over the highway to Alamosa! In the past, I have rode these cars many times on the South Texas Eagle. During the summer months, they were always HOT!

Now, here is some information about another former MP car. Back in April, I purchased former MP diner lounge MP 847. This car is a former diner lounge, built by Budd in 1949. In January 1963 it was rebuilt into a diner/coach and renumbered 582. It was sold by the MP in June 1974 AFE 740259. The car has been in storage for over 25 years at Gateway Rail service’s yard in Madison, IL. After completing some truck work, the car was shipped to Texas, and as of this morning is between Little Rock and Texarkana southbound in a UP freight train.. The UP’s estimated arrival date at Mc Neil, Tx is Monday the 2nd of November.

Final destination will be Cedar Park, Tx, where it will be restored, joining the Eagle Cliff, for service on the Austin Steam Train. Thought that this might be of interest to the group, as it is another one saved and on the move on its former home rails. Also, would hike to hear from those of you that might have any photos on the car, inside or out, when it was in service.

Bert Dockall
Road Foreman of Engines
A&TC RR

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