Reproduction Missouri Pacific ticket dater dies

[peggyrothschild]

There’s been a few recent discussions on a number of Missouri Pacific ticket dies showing up on ebay. The dies don’t show the normal use of the brass edges and letters being worn and are very clean. These are being reproducted so know your dealer or ebay seller before spending a lot of money on a fake or reproduction.

Here’s some additional discussions on reproduction ticket dies http://www.railroadiana.org/fakes/pgFakes_Other.php#dies

[attachment=0:3os97xx8]image.jpg[/attachment:3os97xx8]

[benjamintickell53]

Solid information from serious dater die collectors would be appreciated. The Cosmo fakes mentioned in the above link are readily identifiable, and of a lesser class than the dies currently being sold. Most of the recent dater dies appearing on Ebay have come from the Egan auction, a massive collection of much railroadiana and several thousand dater dies which was auctioned in the northeast perhaps a year ago. I have been told by several die specialists that the dies from this collection are generally considered legitimate. Having acquired a few myself, I share Charlie’s concern that they are often in “mint” condition, seemingly unused. However, in comparing these with known legitimate dies from the same manufacturer (ones acquired directly from a railroad source) I can detect no variation which would suggest that they are counterfeit. Unfortunately, some of the more obviously mint condition dies from this collection have been those from MoPac and from MP Transportation Co, including dies manufactured for both Cosmo and Centennial daters.

Bill Pollard

[peggyrothschild]

This is a tough one to make a call on. I can see some dies being little used that came out of the smaller depots so the wear could be minimal. Many of the dies I saw (mostly the Comos brand) were well used as after the passenger service was discontinued the agent or cashier continued to use the dater to receipt bills of ladings and other documents requiring the Mopac name, location and date. The one at Wichita was closely guarded by the chief clerk (locked up every evening) as every manager that saw it wanted it.

I can see too why someone would clean these as the dirt and ink residue would build up on the die making it a mess to handle in a collection. The few daters I bought came from railroaders so I at least know their origin.

A little change in subject. At the larger stations were there were multiple cashiers or ticket sellers each had their own die marked with a letter for auditing purposes.

[princessclyne69]

There are at least three of these dies on eBay right now, Towner CO, Clearwater KS, and Hughesville MO.

Probably real, or probably fake? I did read the linked item about reproductions of dater dies.

Ron Merrick

[benjamintickell53]

Hard to say about the three on ebay now — and there is another along with them… MP Transportation Co for Harlingen TX. I think some of these have been cleaned, either chemically or in an ultrasonic cleaner, or both. All of these came from the Egan collection, and unfortunately, the MoPac dies are among the newest looking. If they are reproduction, they are to the exact MP specifications, everything matching dies known to be legitimate in terms of font size, etc. We don’t seem to have much information on how dies were ordered by the railroad… one die at a time, or an entire group, and whether spare dies would have been kept on hand anywhere. Information from an experienced die collector would be appreciated.

Bill Pollard

[peggyrothschild]

Here’s my 2 cents knowledge on Mopac dies and the daters.
– all those I’ve bought were purchased from former agents, station auditors or Others involved with working at a station or closing stations. Those dies I did buy (or were given) had worn brass edges and years of ink imbedded in them. None were ever cleaned.
– I was working in the Mopac station department as an Assistant Superintendent and later Superintendent; we never issued any instructions for ticket daters or dies to be returned to the general officers when a station was closed. Am sure the last agent/operator or official going through the drawers took the dies home as a souvenir.
– daters and typewriters were returned to the General Office for repairs. I’d bought a number of Comos daters from an old collector in our Industrial Engineering department and none had dies with them. So I have to believe most stayed at the depot or station with the agents.

The Mopac just wasn’t into selling these things, the Eagle China was donated to the Boy Scouts by D. B. Jenks and the silver holloware went to the Mopac Women’s club where they sold it by the pound. The records in the basement were (generally) tossed out per the ICC record keeping guidelines.

I’m not saying these are all fakes or newly made but it pays to know the dealer and the back ground when buying any questionable antique.

The 1900 IGN and Gulf Coast Lines China was being used on the wrecker in Houston in the mid1960’s, it should have been in a museum. The Mopac Jenks management was focused on running a freight railroad and selling off railroad antiques just wasn’t something they wanted to be bothered with.

Having said all this, I looked at the dies on eBay this morning and the one from Clearwater, Kansas certainly looks worn and dirty enough were I’d say it’s an original. Whereas the one from Towner, Colorado looks to be unused. So is this collection a mix it’s hard to say.

[benjamintickell53]

Here are some examples to consider (all die images have been reversed for easier viewing):
[attachment=2:3nbhmznz]Conway.jpg[/attachment:3nbhmznz] [attachment=1:3nbhmznz]memphis.jpg[/attachment:3nbhmznz] [attachment=0:3nbhmznz]tower-grove.jpg[/attachment:3nbhmznz]
The Conway die is known to be original, down to the ink and gunk that often clogged these dies. The Memphis die has identical font size and machine marks on the side of the die, but is so new as to appear unused. Keep in mind that this die would have been manufactured no later than 1980 and probably a decade earlier. Ultrasonic cleaning could have removed the gunk and the brass patina, but there is very little evidence that this die was “hammered” by dating tickets, waybills or other forms. At this point, the determination about the Memphis die remains a matter of discussion, although if it is a reproduction, it is a near perfect replication. The Tower Grove die is obviously a fake — the uniform font size is the first red flag, compared to Missouri Pacific’s standard design, and the wording is also not standard.

If others have information about any of these die styles, please post.

Bill Pollard

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