[Bud Moss]

Thanks for the concurrence Bill! Jerry

[Bud Moss]

This is a great idea Charlie. Gives a lot of nice options for these cars. I found that a soft eraser removes the lettering on the Athearn cars pretty quickly. Are you looking at Mask Island? Jerry

[Bud Moss]

The ART paint records have not been found (if they even exist). So, it is very possible that some other paint was used rather than the bright orange. More research needs to be done to compare dated color photos and analyze as best we can if there are differences that seem to be consistent; possibly indicating a range of colors. If I had no knowledge of ART, I could almost assume that RMDX 831 was painted in PFE reefer orange.

If you look at the color photos of the RMDX cars on these pages you can get to the point where you want to pull your hair out! There does not seem to be any pattern to the colors and year of the photo and year built. A much larger number of color images might help. I can say, however, that I am more and more of the impression that there was a transitional color between the reefer yellow and the bright orange cars, a kind of yellowish orange as see on RMDX 627, 698, and 831.

All this being said, I want to climb on my soapbox for a few lines. Stu Maher, the lead author provided a large amount of the information in the book. Unfortunately, Stu died suddenly and it seems that he made no plans about the distribution of his railroad material, or even where it was located. We have no idea what documents or data Stu may have had, or who he talked to or interviewed for the book. Perhaps he had ART painting records. The upshot is, for anyone who has historical documents or projects underway, PLEASE make arrangements beforehand. I doubt Stu knew he as going to drop dead in August of 2000. In this information age, it is so easy to preserve paper items that may be crucial to Missouri Pacific history. Our Archives is up and running, and the Archivist is more than happy to help preserve you records. You need not part with the originals other than the time it takes to scan them. Our officers are responsible folks that will always make sure your property is well cared for. It is worthwhile for all of us to assess our collections and if their fate after we pass on is not secure, if family or friends have no idea what you want done with them, please do something about it. Most likely that folder of company documents or black and white photos you took in the 1950s that haven’t seen the light of day for decades isn’t going to be a money-maker for you or your survivors. But they could be historically valuable. So, dust off those hoarded troves, let the MPHS scan them and safely return them to you. You get the originals back and others get the use of the information. If Stu had done this, Andrew’s question might never had to be asked.

Thanks,

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Hi Andrew,

There wasn’t much reason to go into the 1970s or 1980s with the ART history since the last color scheme was the bright orange with black outline MP and N&W heralds and little changed after that time. The color photos in the Mechanical Reefers chapter covers what ART cars looked like in the final years (pgs 202-208).

As to your question, there was a yellow and an orange scheme. The color photo on page 186 is perhaps the best comparison of the yellow and orange scheme, although I am pretty convinced that there were more than one shade of yellow.

The “yellow” scheme with black outline heralds had boxcar red ends and silver/aluminum roofs.

The “orange” scheme had either all over orange or orange with silver roof. Most orange” mechanicals had silver/aluminum roofs, but a few white roofs are known.

Color was a difficult thing to determine in a lot of situations. Note the cars on page 205. Since they all carry the Wabash flag, we should expect that they are all “yellow” cars, but each would seem to be a completely different color. Of course lighting, weathering, and care of the original photograph all make a difference.

The orange scheme came along after the merger of the Wabash into the N&W. I have seem some “yellow” cars with the N&W herald (pg 215), but no “orange” cars with the Wabash flag.

Finally, yes, the orange paint faded, and faded rather quickly. Again it depended on weathering. Some “orange” cars seem to be a darker orange if they has a lot of road grime, and some “clean” orange cars looked almost pinkish.

I don’t know how one would do it, but an analysis of color photos, perhaps matching the color in a photo to Pantone colors, would give a wide range of shades.

I ran into this same problem with the caboose book. In the 1960s some cabooses were painted with a paint that faded quickly to an orange color. The thought was that the railroad used the same orange on its cabooses as the orange reefers, but company correspondence clearly states that the red used on these cabooses faded with the acid detergent they used in the wash racks. So a caboose painted red originally (actually a vermilion), faded to orange (a component of the vermilion paint) after a few times through the wash racks. If a faded caboose was recently washed, it could still retain some sheen, and this gave rise to the thought that they were painted orange originally. So, I wonder if the ART colors faded as they were washed and that is how we ended up with rather bright lemon through bright orange with shades in between as the cars went through the 1960s to the 1970s. Could “warm yellow” fade to “lemon yellow” and “bright orange” fade to “pink?”

Since very few ART company records exist, it is hard to pin down. We didn’t go into this discussion in the book because it was all speculation, and we did not want to create a sense of finality to the color story. There is more work to be done.

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Are they doing all three numbers in the final paint scheme with the large numbers? This should be a popular model. They were all over the St. Louis area in the 1970s and 1980s, then they all seemed to disappear at once and ended up in the long dead line in Ft. Worth. I suspect they were replaced by the MP15s.

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

I probably missed some of this thread. Will these be available in the Company Store? Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

This is a good point Gene. Not being at the Austin meeting, I don’t know if it was addressed or not. I imagine that main problem is the BOD has a ton of work on their respective plates and the level of volunteerism is pretty low in the MPHS. As with a lot of organizations, lots of ideas and opinions but little desire to step up and take on a project.

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Nate, Thanks so much for sharing these. If Bernard is willing, it would be great to do a portfolio article of his dad’s photos. These are absolutely wonderful, and so amazing helpful for we steam fanatics! As Charlie mentioned, MoPac steam in color is pretty rare. Other than Emory Gulash, the sources are pretty limited.

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Charlie,

That photo of the 1414 is incredible! Wouldn’t a 16×20 print be a show-stopper.

Jerry

[Bud Moss]

Mike, I agree with Charlie on this. All color photos I’ve seen of MP steam locomotives show a darker color than say an SP locomotive that had bright silver/aluminum color. My favorite for painting MP steam has always been Floquil Graphite with a bit or Roof Brown for a fresh-from-the-shops locomotive, and then adding a bit of Reefer White or SP Lettering Gray to let down the color for weathered locomotives. But, all color shades are subjective, especially when exposed the the elements for a long time.

As an aside, and to complicate the issue, it has always seemed to me that locomotive side rods were never a bright color. Some color movies, I believe that Joe Collias had, showed a definite cast to them, perhaps from the lubricating oil/grease and dirt they’d pick up. Of course this too would depend on how long the locomotive had been in service since its last shopping or washing.

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Charlie, Immediately above the cab number on steam locomotives is the E rating for bridges. To the right of that, above the last digit, and coming close to the end of the cab is the class, P-73. for example and the cylinder dimensions and other information. Jerry

[Bud Moss]

Hopefully some idea of the differences between the original and 1950s version will be forthcoming as The Coach Yard’s plans come together.

What I wonder is who might be providing information to Coach Yard? I was of the opinion the MPHS had a person who worked with companies. Perhaps not. But wouldn’t it be worthwhile for someone in the MPHS leadership to contact them?

I realize that brass is expensive, as it has always been. However with the Texas Eagle, Colorado Eagle and Delta Eagle already done, the Missouri River Eagle, in two versions no less, is kind of the crowing effort. I’ve been hoping for forty years for this train to be done. All I hope it that Walthers doesn’t do it six months later!

Note too, that you do not have to buy the full trains. Individual cars are available. Charlie mentioned a $6,000 price rage. I take it this come from recent MSRPs for such trains as the UP City of Los Angeles ( an 11-car train). Regardless, it will be expensive. But it will be magnificent!

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Mark, are you building a model? Sunshine or F&C? I believe there was an interior shot of the panel-side gondola in a past issue of the Eagle, but the exact issue escapes me.

Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

Nice track plan. An MR&BT 1920s era layout is going to be great! Jerry Michels

[Bud Moss]

This is well done Ron! Thanks for getting this information out. Jerry

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