T&P Pullman Operations – 1950-1954

[Bill Pollard]

From Yahoo Mopac Group, November 2006

Pullman cars Cotton Land and Cotton Valley, formerly assigned to the
Cotton Belt, were painted in Eagle colors in late September 1950 and
presumably operated in T&P trains 21-22 between Fort Worth and New
Orleans until early 1954.

These cars had been 8-section-buffet-coach configuration on the Cotton
Belt, but were modified to 8-section-buffet-lounge cars by the time
they were assigned to the T&P.

Anyone have photos, dispatcher sheets, or timebooks to conclusively
link these cars to the T&P’s operation during this time period?
Bill Pollard

---

Bill
Fascinating! I had no idea that these cars had wound up on the T&P. I, too, would love to see a photo of one of them painted in Eagle colors. There is, of course, the photo of Cotton Valley in Art Dubin’s “Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook” taken when the car was first adapted for the Cotton Belt’s use. In the accompanying caption Art states, “The cars later served on the Kansas City Southern and the Gulf, Mobile & Ohio.”. He makes no mention of the T&P.
What do you make of this?
Gordon

---

Gordon,
The two cars did indeed see brief service (4 months) on the KCS, as
Kansas City-Fort Smith setout cars for the Flying Crow, starting in
March 1940. This usage was first identified by Cotton Belt historian
Jim Bennett, and was reconfirmed with some recent research at the
Newberry Library. Jim had also previously identified that these cars
(after the coach section was converted to diner-lounge) saw service on
the Gulf Coast Rebel, and later (1949) were assigned to the PRR
Dominion between Buffalo and Washington.

The painting record of the two cars (thanks to Tom Madden’s Pullman
Project data)is the only thing thus far that ties them to Mopac or
T&P. If only one car had been identified as being painted, we might
suspect a mis-posting of paint diagram numbers by the Pullman shop
crew, but for both cars to have received Eagle colors (one identified
as a T&P Eagle paint diagram) is fairly compelling evidence. The Fort
Worth-New Orleans car line (identified by T&P as sections-buffet-lounge) seems to be the most likely fit. This T&P designation (starting late 1950) replaced an earlier buffet sleeper configuration that also contained a bedroom.

Another mystery is where (if anywhere) these two cars were assigned
after their T&P service ended.
Bill Pollard

---

Bill

The information about the KCS usage is fascinating, especially with me being an old Fort Smithian! That was a service of which I was totally unaware but am glad to learn about.

I’m surprised to hear about the Gulf Coast Rebel as the only references I find in Official Guides of the period are either for a “luxury diner-coach” or after WWII for a diner-lounge (“car owned & operated by GM&O”). The 10-sec, 1-DR, 3-DBR Pullman betterment cars Show Me and Deep South were the only sleeping cars ever shown, so that must have been a pretty brief assignment for these cars also.

I was looking in the Pullman Project data about these cars when your email popped up and see the painting entries to which you refer. Cotton Land was again repainted 2/12/53, this time into Pullman colors. You indicated in your initial post that they were in service on the T&P until early 1954 — what leads you to say that given the 2/53 repaint date? I see both cars were eventually “transferred” to the NYC, with disposition dates for both cars of 3/58. What is not clear to me is whether the 3/58 date is when they were transferred to the NYC or when they were finally disposed of. As of 9/55, the NYC was operating 8-section/buffet cars on two sets of trains between Chicago and Buffalo (358/39 and 90/5)– I wonder if either of these used our cars?

At any rate, it’s all fun. I’m particularly delighted to learn of the KC-Fort Smith set-out car on the Flying Crow. Within only a year or so after the service you mention, rail passenger service into Fort Smith ended and after that only a bus connection to Spiro, OK was available.
Gordon Mott

---

Gordon and Bill –

I looked in Wayner’s Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars – he shows the 3/58 date as “transferred to NYC for scrapping.” Wayner also shows the conversion to plan 4052A as 4/43.

There is a floor plan shown in Kratville’s Pullman Catalog. There are two small toilets at one end, followed by eight sections, then a standard wide men’s smoking room, then a buffet, two dining tables, then a 14-seat lounge (previously 16-coach seats).

Wow, what a neat pair of cars.
Dick Ryker

---

[Bill Pollard]

Subsequent research has developed that Cotton Land and Cotton Valley operated in Pullman line 3520 (Fort Worth-New Orleans) during their tenure on the Texas & Pacific. These cars were apparently replaced by two similar buffet-lounge-sleepers of NYC ownership in July 1952. Lounge service was discontinued on October 28, 1953 and standard heavyweight sleepers of various configurations were assigned.
Bill Pollard

[Author]

Posts