[benjamintickell53]

Blue cobalt ceramic ash trays (most manufactured by Hall China) were standard for years in dining cars and probably the table area of lounge cars. Smoking stands were used in the lounge/parlor end of these cars. The clear ash trays may have appeared in the 1950s or early 1960s, but I haven’t seen any interior photos from that period to verify how or whether they were marked. Most likely those used in the mid-late 1960s were unmarked glass.

Bill Pollard

[attachment=0:oycbq5kx]T&P-ashtray-w.jpg[/attachment:oycbq5kx]

[benjamintickell53]

Given the way the merger picture turned out, an “alternative” outcome with ATSF in Jenks blue looks pretty good. The paint arrangement would have been a little more sedate that the Kodachrome SFSP scheme.

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

I would like to see more research on uniform cap badges. The December 1924 MP Magazine has an article describing the “new” badges which had Missouri Pacific heralds on each side of the badge (like the News Service badge pictured in the prior post.) Badges known to exist in this form include:
Baggage Agent
Baggageman
Conductor
News Service
Train Auditor
Undoubtedly there were other similar badges, at least for Brakeman/Trainman, Porter, etc.

[attachment=0:3h5zc45m]1924-style-Condr.jpg[/attachment:3h5zc45m]

The November 1926 MP Magazine notes that a new style of badge was being phased in, these with the herald in the center of badge and lettered Missouri Pacific Lines. This style of badge lasted until MP passenger service ended in 1971. Badges known to exist in this form include:
Agent
Baggageman
Conductor
Gateman
News Service
Parlor-Porter
Porter
Trainman
Other positions may also exist; Stationmaster, etc.

[attachment=3:3h5zc45m]Trainman-cap.JPG[/attachment:3h5zc45m]

Prior to 1916, cap badges were simpler, slotted badges, with separate badges for Missouri Pacific and for the Iron Mountain. The Iron Mountain badges were obviously obsolete after the consolidation with MP, but the Missouri Pacific badges may have remained in service until 1924.

Bill Pollard

[attachment=2:3h5zc45m]Brakeman-MP-slotted.jpg[/attachment:3h5zc45m]

[attachment=1:3h5zc45m]Condr-StlIM&S.jpg[/attachment:3h5zc45m]

[benjamintickell53]

On the 200 gallon water tank, for a coach that sounds about right. The entire train would have been watered en route. Most passenger cars were always watered at Little Rock and probably again at least once more in Texas.
Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

Fort Smith has a great trolley museum with a number of pieces of rail equipment, as well as a functioning tourist railroad – the Arkansas & Missouri, which might be incorporated in some fashion into the convention. A&M is the old Frisco, but there was a Little Rock-Monett Pullman car line at one time, so that might qualify as a MP historical connection.

Muskogee has the museum in the former Midand Valley-KO&G station as well as a few other historical sites nearby.

Tulsa — not sure about any real MoP connection there, always a Frisco and Santa Fe town. Might be easier to find hotel facilities in Tulsa compared to Muskogee, but the hotel pricing would no doubt be higher.

I would be happy to attend any of those locations, my preference ranking would probably be as listed above.

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

Thanks to Jim Ogden and the Internet, we have the 1966 travel schedule of the Metropolitan Opera:

The 1966 tour dates for the New York Metropolitan Opera touring company: Boston 4/18 to 4/24; Cleveland 4/25 to 4/30; Atlanta 5/2 to 5/7; Memphis 5/9 to 5/11; Dallas 5/12 to 5/15; St. Louis 5/16 to 5/17 and then on to Minneapolis 5/18 to 5/22 and Detroit 5/22 to 5/28. These dates match exactly the special train dates noted in this thread. Note the close timing between performances, with no allowance for any significant train delay.

The NYC 9100 series baggage cars had end doors which were useful for theatrical groups for end loading scenery and sets.

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

Dick,
The absence of dining cars surprised me too. The two 6DBR bar lounges might have had a galley, but no way they could have served everyone more than liquid refreshments.

I had heard that RI handled the NY Met frequently… for some months I have the RI LRK car inspector records with consists, but of course May 1966 was missing, probably inadvertently thrown away when we were cleaning out Biddle. However, I do have the Biddle roundhouse book for that month, showing all loco movements, and 5am on May 12 had entry for the arrival of locomotives 1290-1291 on a “special.” No other info was provided, but 1290-91 were steam generator equipped Geeps, so I’m now thinking the train came over from Memphis on the RI and was interchanged to the MoP. Where would that have happened — on that “double S curve” interchange track in east Little Rock?

I wish that we had gotten this information a few years back — John Mills might have been able to fill in some of the details.

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

Looks really good for display track, almost like there is room for more than one. What weight is that rail?

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

My MoPac stepbox is all silver, including the rubber feet. The T&P step boxes that I saw “in service” were similarly all silver. However, I have also seen several T&P step boxes (in private collections) that have a black base and unpainted aluminum top. On both, I have scraped on the underside to try to get some evidence of underlying paint, with no success. One is unpainted on underneath and other has been spray painted black. It would be helpful to see photos, but I wonder whether black base and unpainted aluminum tread might have been standard on the T&P in the pre-Jenks era?

The photo shows a T&P box with the embossed lettering unpainted. While this looks nice, its seems unlikely that it would have been standard.

Bill Pollard

[attachment=0:2f0hs09d]stepbox.jpg[/attachment:2f0hs09d]

[benjamintickell53]

Facebook. It is a WR campaign publicity photo.

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

Wonder what happened to all of those signs? I’ve seen some of the later St. Louis Union Station signs pass through collections (the big white boards with black lettering) but never any of these earlier, more ornate signs. It would be nice to even have a color photo to show the actual colors.
Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

I am attaching PDF files of diagrams for the former T&P cars as renumbered 100-134, which should answer some of your questions. MP did have some similar cars, but I do not have the car numbers.

You might consider purchasing the new CD on passenger car diagrams, available from the MPHS Company Store
http://www.mopac.org/store/cd-s-dvd-s/item/475-data-cd-passenger-car-diagrams-1963-1978

Bill Pollard

[attachment=1:b55ydsez]125-134.pdf[/attachment:b55ydsez]

[attachment=0:b55ydsez]100-124.pdf[/attachment:b55ydsez]

[benjamintickell53]

After further thought, it seems somewhat unlikely that Texas & Pacific would purchase service plates with Missouri Pacific Lines featured prominently on the front. Even though it was somewhat of a corporate charade, T&P always tried to function with a considerable degree of independence. Usage of the “Texas” service plates on the I-GN is certainly plausible, but it would be helpful to find some T&P dining car interior photos or mention in the T&P employee magazine to actually confirm usage on the T&P.

That said, the predecessor to the steam plate, which was the Sunshine Special service plate, did prominently mention the three roads involved, namely StLIM&S, I&GN and T&P, and it seems likely that these earlier plates were indeed in service on the Sunshine Special from end to end. By the time the steam service plates were first purchased in 1929, perhaps “Missouri Pacific Lines” was seen as all encompassing – including even the T&P, at least for this purpose.

Does anyone have any documentation to either confirm or refute the Texas version of the steam service plate usage on the T&P?

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

Thanks for the update. I remember the museum from the time in the late 60s and early 70s, when it seemed that everything was rusting or rotting into oblivion, and it seems that the present operation at least slowed, if not reversed, that process. Some of the comments following this news article state that the “dedicated curators” will be out of a job as of January. If that is the case, it seems an ominous start to a return to private control. Its undoubtedly a difficult situation due to funding, but the museum has national stature, and should be supported by St. Louis in some substantive manner, regardless of the entity which holds ownership.

On a MoPac related note, at one time some years back, one of the rare MP baggage-coach-caboose cars was on a possible dispersal list from the MOT. Did that happen, or does the car still reside at MOT? If it was sold, to who and where?

Bill Pollard

[benjamintickell53]

I have seen these prints from time to time at train shows, and always thought that the colors looked faded. Now, seeing so many of them, I wonder whether those muted colors were just the way the prints were made. Has anyone seen any of these in brighter colors, or taken the print apart to refinish the frame and found the “hidden” part of the print to be a different color?

Bill Pollard

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