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According to the Pullman Company’s History of Lines records, Pullman line 3385 (New Orleans-Houston) was filled with 8sec-5DBR cars in the 1950s until late June 1959, then went through a couple of other heavyweight configurations before being converted to lightweight cars in April 1961. Pullman line 3641 (Houston-Brownsville) is shown as having 8sec-5DBR cars assigned from late November 1957 until mid-May 1961, when the route was converted to lightweight equipment.
The History of Lines documents do not show assignments by specific car names, but a September 1961 Pullman-MP car assignment sheet shows 8-5 cars Clover Nook, Clover Spray, Ixtaccihuatl, Malinche, Nevado de Toluca and Sierre Madre as still being active but “extra” – not assigned to any line. Its probable that the last 8-5 cars assigned to the Houston-Brownsville run came from this group. Houston documents now being scanned by the Gulf Coast Chapter and shared with MPHS may eventually provide more detailed documentation.
Bill Pollard
My problem has to do with how I access the forum. When I access thru the main mopac.org “home page” and then use the “Forums” link on right side menu, everything is a bit scrambled and compressed, with some overlapping text. That’s usually how I have been accessing, and while it works fine for posting, some/most of the links at the top (quick links menu, etc) are not functional.
When I access the forum through the direct link that Charlie provides on the Mopac Yahoo group page (http://mopac.org/bb/), then I get a full width version of the forum pages, and the quick links menu works fine.
When accessing thru the home page, even if I make the page full screen width, I still have the scrambled text, etc. The fix is obviously to access through the direct link Charlie provided, but I suspect many will access thru the main page so that glitch eventually needs to be addressed also. It appears that when the right side menu box is present, it is scrambling up the remainder of the page.
Hope that helps with troubleshooting.
Bill
David,
If you find a place that can handle that kind of job at a reasonable cost, let me know. Repro business cards with current information on the reverse (i.e.- zip codes on addresses, or email information) would not be confused for 1940-vintage cards.Bill Pollard
I have the same problem using Firefox. The “Quick Links” link does nothing, no menu dropping down, etc.
Bill Pollard
Subsequent research has developed that Cotton Land and Cotton Valley operated in Pullman line 3520 (Fort Worth-New Orleans) during their tenure on the Texas & Pacific. These cars were apparently replaced by two similar buffet-lounge-sleepers of NYC ownership in July 1952. Lounge service was discontinued on October 28, 1953 and standard heavyweight sleepers of various configurations were assigned.
Bill PollardEarlier thread from Yahoo Mopac group, June 2012
I have seen references that show the MP 5BR-lounge cars being utilized by the B&O between St. Louis and Washington DC on the National Limited. I have also seen pics
of the cars being used on the CB&Q’s Twin Zephyrs. What role they served on
the Twin Zephyrs is unknown to me.
Mike Cafferata
Not sure what this is on the rear of a GM&O train to Chicago,
http://www.railarchive.net/gmogallery/photo007.htm
Great images by Dr. Leonard’s GMO&O site. Has two or three with Mopac equipment, (baggage on head end).
Dan
That’s a 14-4, or a 14-1-2, aisle side. I think the aisle sides of these two groups of sleepers were identical.
Ron Merrick
Its a little unusual to have a MP sleeper on the back of GM&O #4, as shown in the photo link referenced below. In 1957, a 10-6 operated Houston-St. Louis-Chicago and a 14-1-2 operated Ft. Worth-St Louis-Chicago, both supposed to have been carried in GM&O #2 north of St. Louis. On the date #4 was photographed, the west Texas Eagle apparently was sufficiently late into St. Louis that a decision was made to not hold GM&O #2 and instead forward the Ft. Worth sleeper on #4.With regard to other usage of the T&P 5BR cars… Eagle Ridge was placed in Chicago-Florida service on the Dixie Flagler, operating approximately mid-December 1950 through mid-May 1951, with no exterior repainting.
When these 5BR-lounge cars were used on the B&O, was that after the time that regular usage had ended on the Texas Eagle?
Four surplus T&P 14-4 cars were also placed in the general Pullman pool in October 1949, Eagle Call, Eagle Spirit, Eagle Trail and Eagle Watch. These four cars were repainted Pullman two-tone gray with Pullman letterboards and assigned to extra service on Union Pacific. Two of the cars, Eagle Trail and Eagle Watch, were returned to T&P in November 1950 after being restored to Eagle colors.
Hopefully others can provide additional usage data for these cars as they traveled off line.
Bill Pollard
I was able to do a bit of digging and found references to both the B&O
assignments and the Twin Zephyr assignments in the TRRA publication #63
“Pullmans to St. Louis”.On page 24, it is stated that one car was assigned to Ft. Worth-El Paso
until 7/11/1961. While not stated, that hints that the other two cars
remained in St. Louis-Ft. Worth service around that time. Also on page 24,
the article indicates that the 3 cars were assigned to B&O for National
Limited service from 12/1/1962 to 4/23/1963 and again from 5/8/1963 to
4/26/1964. One car, “Eagle Ridge”, was converted to an RPO in 1966 and
the other two cars were retired and sold in 1966.Page 26 of the same issue references the assignment of the cars to the
Burlington’s Morning and Afternoon Twin Zephyrs. On page 34 of Michael
Spoor’s “CB&Q Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment” a photo of a
MP car is shown in the consist of one of the Twin Zephyrs in July 1964.
Based on the window configuration, it appears to be one of the cars in
question. I have seen other photos but cannot find them at this time.I will pose a question to the CB&Q group to see if anyone knows the
assignment dates of the cars and what they were used for.
Mike Cafferata
Mike,Thanks for locating that reference. I recalled reading of the B&O usage but could not locate the source.
I interpret the TRRA-HS mention of the Ft. Worth-El Paso assignment of the single car to be a brief operation. It would have required a second car from somewhere to fill out the other side of the assignment, since two cars would have been required for daily operation.
Pullman line 3708 was the assignment for the 5BR-lounge cars, initially operating St. Louis-El Paso beginning August 14, 1948, then cut back to St. Louis-Ft. Worth on October 31, 1948.
There was a brief period in 1952, 1953 and 1956 when the line operated only every other day account “shopping”, which suggests that the 3rd car was unavailable for use during that time. Line 3708, still St. Louis-Fort Worth, was discontinued July 11, 1961.
Bill Pollard
In case this has been missed by others, the MP/T&P 5-B-L was used on the B&O Detroit – Wash,DC… see Dubin’s book on Pullman livery cover.
Alah Hegler
From Yahoo Mopac group, May 2014
Gordon
Wonderful photos! And glad you recorded the consist.I worked several months in Van Buren/Ft. Smith around the winter 1975. Recall one evening seeing the Jenks Blue 1976 working in a consist to be painted in the red/white/blue for the bi-centennial at NLRK. Apparently when they were switching in Russellville the engineer misjudged where his train was and backed into the train too fast and ‘bent the frame’. The engine showed back up at Van Buren with oil all over the middle of the walkway the next day.
I was told later they pulled another GP-18 out of service to get the bi-centennial colors and the real 1976 was quietly retired. Looking forward to anymore of your ‘unfiled’ negatives.
Charlie Duckworth
These are great pictures, and Wagoner is a rarely photographed location. Trains 125 and 126 were truly all-stops locals by this time, a far cry from the Rainbow Special of 40 years earlier. A schedule from the January 1960 Official Guide is attached, showing the many stops as well as meal stops in each direction.MoPac attempted to revive passenger business on this route by promoting round trips for a dollar more than one-way fare, and a grill coach was also restored from December 15, 1957 until January 31, 1959 to upgrade the service. The identity of the grill cars has always been a bit of a mystery.
Gordon Mott mentions that train 126 turned in Kansas City to become 125. Its possible that 125 turned at Little Rock to become 126. A photo taken at Conway on the last northbound trip has locomotive 8012, and an 8mm home movie of this last trip shows a four-car consist similar to the one Gordon photographed southbound a day earlier.
Bill PollardMopac Yahoo Group – January 2015
This thread was originally titled “FAs on Passenger Trains” but deals with the same image of MP 366 and passenger train.
I have seen few images of MP FA’s on passenger trains. The Plug commuter train from Pacific to STL is one, but few if any other that I can remember at the moment.This surfaced the other day on a O Gauge train discussion list and I thought it interesting, a pair of FA’s on what looks like a regular passenger run. No date or location or who took image. I thought the FA’s did not have steam generators. Regulating them to fill in for warm weather.
Dan
I believe this photo has been published before. IIRC it’s northbound (westbound) at Van Buren, on the LR-KC train.I don’t have the exact details at hand, but a number of the later FAs did have boilers. I believe they’re even visible in this photo. However, I believe they only held down secondary trains at best, like the boiler-equipped F units. To my knowledge, these units were primarily operated on the lines out of NLR when they got passenger assignments. They were probably the first units rendered surplus for passenger operations, but perhaps they operated as late as the passenger cutbacks of 1960.
Ron Merrick
MoPac had FA2s (FPA2) with steam generators which along with GP7s and F- units with steam generators tied down secondary trains. All wore freight colors.
Jim Ogden
M.P. had 19 FA-2 (actually FPA-2) locomotives with steam generators of
1,200-gallon water capacity as follows.
361-372, built 1/52
373, built 8/53
387-392, built 3-4/54
Ed Hawkins
The thoughts that follow are pure speculation on my part.It is well known that the first passenger diesels were bought for specific trains, and there really were no spares for the Eagle and Colorado Eagle. So it’s likely that the first couple of E units bought in 1945 could have been intended as spare power as much as anything. Then, considering that MoPac was not in a position nor had the desire to throw money at anything, units came on the property a few at a time. This was more than likely intended to prepare for the arrival of the 1948 Eagle trains, and perhaps ended up fitting between order windows alongside the railroads who were buying much larger orders of passenger power. By this time, dieselization was the order of the day, so passenger units more than likely were ordered to fit the MoPac concept of dieselizing entire divisions.
By 1950-51, it would have been apparent that the passenger traffic market was softening, just as the need to finish dieselizing was intensifying. Somewhere along the way, the balance (not of power — I’m not trying to be punny) shifted toward ALCo as the winner of more locomotive orders than EMD. Hence, there were FA2s bought after the last F7s, and PAs after the last E8s. Whether this was because ALCo could offer better delivery and/or lower prices because they were already losing the battle for market share to EMD, or if there were really preferences toward the ALCo product, I can’t say. Probably there is no documentation left to shed any light on this.
On the horizon there were prospects of more troop movements in case of another war after Korea, and the MoPac was certainly not alone in buying some freight engines that could be used for passenger service in an emergency. Having engines out on the road, in case the six-axle power in some remote location should become unserviceable (hitting a gasoline truck, in the case of the Wreck Island and some others) or just up and dying in the middle of the night, would have been cheap insurance. So there were the boiler-equipped F units and FPAs, for better secondary trains, and the approximately 40 geeps also equipped with boilers, which seemed to work even more lowly trains in the early to mid 50s. No one suspected at that time that these geeps would be working with E units just ten years later, after having been souped up.
Ron Merrick
A quick search yielded this shot…
http://rr-fallenflags.org/mp/mp0366kga.jpg
jerry LaBoda
Not Van Buren, and I am almost certain not train 126. The setting doesn’t look like Van Buren, and to the best of my knowledge there wasn’t a mainline fueling station there. The train also doesn’t look right — it looks like a LW Pullman on the end which only occurred on 125/126 during the fairly brief period when the Wichita-StL car was handled north of Durand. But overall the train is too large for a normal 126.Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if the train might be 131/132, the LR-Lake Charles train. The consist is the right size — coaches, grill coach and Pullman. Certainly the FA’s were heavily used in all directions out of Little Rock.
Gordon Mott
That is a great photo. Is the MP Merchandise box in the background badly faded, or were some ofthem painted gray instead of blue along the top and bottom sides?
Stephen Bartlett
That’s faded paint.I have a couple shots of the 353000 series cars, which had full passenger colors, showing the fading. And almost everybody has seen some of the 135 series mail storage 70′ boxcar-style cars with two aluminum doors per side. Lots of those cars didn’t even get painted boxcar red, they just shoved out somewhere to be used as a tool car, and they faded pretty badly. There’s also a shot on passcarphotos of the T&P 1141, coach repainted by NRHS in about 1970, at Hearne or somewhere forty years later. You can barely even tell that color used to be blue.
Ron Merrick
If I remember correctly, at least some of the 135 series mail storage cars were used as freight cars in hay service (and other?) after their use on passenger trains ended. I have a number of photos of a car in SE Kansas in this service. The next time I saw one it was painted primer red and in Mof W service sitting on the branch at Lake Junction behind my house here in St. Louis.
Bill Hoss
Sometime in the late 1950s, the ends on Merchandise cars began to be painted the same color blue as the sides.I will have to look over some old photos, but I think this photo might be the extreme south end of the passenger yard in Monroe, LA. I am going on the shed (a repair in place facility) and the municipal water tower. In the far right in a GP7 and some sort of tower. Monroe’s depot was two storey similar to Poplar Bluff but with a decorative bay window but I’m not seeing it in this photo. It was demolished circa 1976-77.
There was a billboard MISSOURI PACIFIC in script lettering that was at the LCL/TOFC facility but it was added in the late fifties. This matched the cursive script used on trailers from perhaps 1959-1962.
Jim Ogden
Fort Worth, Texas
Were the Monroe facilities for passengers on the East or West side of the track. If on the East side, then this would most likely be Train 131 (later 31) on the West Side then Train 132 (32). Don’t think if could be either of the night trains that passed through Monroe. Of course, the MOP did have a train between Monroe, LA and Gurdon, AR into the 1950’s also.
George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA
As I stated in another post, if it was Monroe, LA. then if was most likely either train 131 or 132 as they were scheduled during the daylight hours through Louisiana. This was on the line between Little Rock and Lake Charles, LA. via McGehee, Ark, Monroe and Alexandria, LA. There was also a service between Monroe, LA. and Gurdon, Ark. at least as late as 1954. I had ruled out one of the other two trains through Monroe, Trains 103 and 116 thinking that they passed through in the night time hours, but looking at a Public Timetable from 1954, Train 116 departed Monroe at 7:10 AM, so if it was northbound this would be a possibility.
George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA
The consist in the photo exactly matches the basic consist for train 131/132 in 1956.Storage Mail
Baggage Express
RPO Mail
52 seat coach
52 seat coach
28 seat grill coach
sleeper 14-4Dick Ryker
Which would make Monroe, LA a good location as the grill coach ran Little Rock to Alexandria.
George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA
I made a site visit over the weekend and am reasonably sure this is Monroe, LA, south of the depot at maybe 7:30 a.m. The train will depart southerly toward Columbia where it will cross the Ouachita River. I am going on the location of the silver municipal water tower and a store building at the extreme right of the photo that is still there today. It is near the geep on the right. The LCL REA building and depot are out of the field of view.
Jim Ogden60-seat coach 338 was originally classified as an International-Great Northern car before the consolidation of Texas subsidiary lines. The diagram for cars 337-339 has an original date of July 30, 1949, the approximate year of rebuilding. In the MP 1963 renumbering of passenger cars, coach 338 became coach 1161. The car last appeared in the March 1965 issue of the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment, thus giving an approximate time of its retirement.
Bill Pollard
In the 1963 passenger car renumbering, stateroom coaches 850-855 became 494-499. These cars were often seen on trains 7-8, operating between St. Louis and Fort Worth. As Dick Ryker mentions in an earlier post, most of the stateroom doors were crudely marked (black Magic Marker ?) for “Crew Only”. My recollection is that the room was used as the conductor’s office, but I wonder if some other usage had been originally intended, perhaps as dorm space for the grill coach attendant.
Trains 7-8 had an odd arrangement with the grill coach attendant. For a number of years, a grill coach had operated between St. Louis and Fort Worth. Starting in August 1964, a notation appeared in the Official Guide advising that the grill would be closed between Little Rock and Marshall each way. This change possibly reflected the reduction in grill crew from two persons to one. It also meant that the grill was closed for lunch in both directions, with trains 7 and 8 showing a “meal stop” at Little Rock and Texarkana respectively, where station restaurants were available. I assume that this arrangement was so that a single grill attendant could have “off time” per union agreements. Could the assignment of a stateroom coach have initially been intended to provide dorm space for this attendant? My only memories of the grill southbound on #7 from Little Rock was with the attendant sitting at one of the empty tables in the grill car, reading the newspaper at noon, which at the time seemed to illustrate the Jenks approach to passenger service.
Bill Pollard
Earlier discussions about these cars suggested that they might have been assigned as the St. Louis – Corpus Christi through coaches in later years. That assertion will need additional research. Through coach service was discontinued in favor of a cross-platform connection in Houston, with last runs of the through cars approximately September 2, 1958. This involved trains 21-22, 121-122, and 321-322.
The first entry for these stateroom cars in the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment carried no notation other than identifying them as 64-seat StLB&M coaches, the 5 seats in the stateroom (as indicated on car diagram) not being counted towards car capacity reported in the ORPTE. These six cars also had a window on each side of the diaphragm on the blind end of the car, and double porthole windows in the end door, strongly suggesting that some manner of rear car operation was planned when the cars were ordered.
Attached is an article from the November 1948 MP Magazine describing the inauguration of the Valley Eagle. If some sort of innovative parlor seat service was anticipated with these stateroom cars, one would think that it would have been mentioned in the article.
Bill Pollard
Here are a couple of scans from the August 1948 Railway Age which describes the deluxe stateroom coaches in some detail, but with no mention of the planned usage for the stateroom. It does appear that there was no upper berth, thus no overnight usage contemplated which would have infringed on the uniform Pullman contract, which specified that Pullman had exclusive right to provide overnight sleeper accommodations.
The diagram mentions that the end door had two round windows in it, one at sitting level and one at standing level. On some of those cars, the double window doors survived as long as the car, although I believe that all end windows were plated over by the time I saw the cars in the mid-1960s.
This article does mention that two cars with a grill coach spliced between would be used on a new (unspecified) daylight streamliner, thus eliminating the need to turn the train.
Bill Pollard
Full exchanges from Yahoo Group (July 2015) about the image: MP366 and psgr train
Monroe, Louisiana. Southbound. Today the store at the far right of the image is still there. This is south of the passenger station.
Jim Ogden
So, Jim, given the mid-day sun, would this be 821/822?
Dick Ryker
That’s my hunch. I understand there was a guy (now deceased) in Monroe who took railroad pictures. I think he worked at or had a camera shop in Monroe. I have seen a number of ALCo black and white photos. Another suspect is Lee Estes who worked for the A&LM Railway. I need to ask Don Smith if he has any idea.
Jim Ogden
Would be nice if we could date the picture. I know this same picture was used either here or on the LRMRG yahoo group and was identified by consist as 131 the Little Rock to Lake Charles Train.If 821/822 would be prior to 1956 as my Official Guide from that year has 821/822 not operating south of El Dorado, Arkansas. In 1954 train still went to Monroe, LA. If someone could identify the cars in the train by type the presence or absence of Pullman would tell which train as 821/822 would not have a Pullman while 131 would have.
George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA[Editorial note: 821-822 discontinued between El Dorado and Monroe April 26, 1955.]
I think the consensus was that it was 131 to Lake Charles rather than 821 because of its longer consist.
Jim Ogden
From the window spacing the last car would appear to me to be a lightweight Pullman, most likely a 14-4.
Gordon Mott
Jacksonville, FL
Gordon,
I would agree with your assessment. The last car car is not a heavyweight. The photo matches, exactly, the 1956 consist information for #131 – 7 cars from Little Rock to Alexandria:Storage mail LR-Alex
baggage-express LR-Lake Charles
RPO-bagg-express LR-Alex
Coach (52 seat) LR-Lake Charles
Coach (52 seat) LR-Alex
Grill-coach (28 seat) LR-Alex
14-4 sleeper St Louis to Lake CharlesDick Ryker
MP 366 with passenger train.
Ron,
I believe that is correct about the 582 being in Kansas City in the early years after Amtrak. I inspected a L&N Pine series sleeper in Kansas City during the 1978-1979 timeframe. We were looking for a sleeping car to make Amtrak compatible for Razorback game travel – “Hogtrain”. From memory, I recall a stainless MP diner coach at that location, undoubtedly the 582 since 580-581 were solid blue. At some time in the past, this car was also at (or being brokered by) Ozark Mountain Railcar. Bert Dockall performed a class restoration of the Eagle Cliff in years past, and I look forward to seeing what he will accomplish with the 582. With both those cars eventually to operate on the Austin steam train, Austin should perhaps be considered for some future MPHS convention.Bill Pollard
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