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November 24, 2016 at 5:10 am in reply to: Sunshine Special state flowers plate with Texas at 12 o’clock #8144
After further thought, it seems somewhat unlikely that Texas & Pacific would purchase service plates with Missouri Pacific Lines featured prominently on the front. Even though it was somewhat of a corporate charade, T&P always tried to function with a considerable degree of independence. Usage of the “Texas” service plates on the I-GN is certainly plausible, but it would be helpful to find some T&P dining car interior photos or mention in the T&P employee magazine to actually confirm usage on the T&P.
That said, the predecessor to the steam plate, which was the Sunshine Special service plate, did prominently mention the three roads involved, namely StLIM&S, I&GN and T&P, and it seems likely that these earlier plates were indeed in service on the Sunshine Special from end to end. By the time the steam service plates were first purchased in 1929, perhaps “Missouri Pacific Lines” was seen as all encompassing – including even the T&P, at least for this purpose.
Does anyone have any documentation to either confirm or refute the Texas version of the steam service plate usage on the T&P?
Bill Pollard
Thanks for the update. I remember the museum from the time in the late 60s and early 70s, when it seemed that everything was rusting or rotting into oblivion, and it seems that the present operation at least slowed, if not reversed, that process. Some of the comments following this news article state that the “dedicated curators” will be out of a job as of January. If that is the case, it seems an ominous start to a return to private control. Its undoubtedly a difficult situation due to funding, but the museum has national stature, and should be supported by St. Louis in some substantive manner, regardless of the entity which holds ownership.
On a MoPac related note, at one time some years back, one of the rare MP baggage-coach-caboose cars was on a possible dispersal list from the MOT. Did that happen, or does the car still reside at MOT? If it was sold, to who and where?
Bill Pollard
I have seen these prints from time to time at train shows, and always thought that the colors looked faded. Now, seeing so many of them, I wonder whether those muted colors were just the way the prints were made. Has anyone seen any of these in brighter colors, or taken the print apart to refinish the frame and found the “hidden” part of the print to be a different color?
Bill Pollard
Bill,
The “History of Lines” ledgers are located at the Newberry Library in Chicago, along with a wealth of other Pullman information. These documents provide information about when specific lines were started, stopped or rerouted. Sometimes, but not always, the pages indicate the type of Pullman car assigned, and only rarely was the actual car name indicated. The specific car assignments could be found in documents produced for each railroad 2-4 times a year by D.R. Culver, Pullman Company’s Superintendent of Transportation. Possibly the Katy Historical Society has some of these Culver documents – I do not have any.I do have some notes on Katy “History of Lines” data (recognizing that its heresy to admit such on a MP forum, LOL.) If you have a specific question, let me know and I might be able to help.
Bill Pollard
Sweatshirt is a good idea for wintertime, and this is a classy design. The 2016 convention T-shirt really turned out well – thanks to those involved in designing and producing it.
Bill Pollard
Passenger train consists from March-October period of 1959 show Fir Terrace and Fir Forest as the cars assigned to trains 9-10. Is there any evidence that they received Eagle colors, or were they likely operated in Pullman’s standard two-tone grey?
Bill Pollard
Really looks good in that new paint!
Bill
Nice photo coverage. Great convention as always, and a good turnout again this year. For those who have not or are not attending, you really should “mark off” for Columbus Day weekend next year – these are well worth the time. Thanks to all of those who handled the labor intensive, time consuming behind the scenes arrangements which make these events happen.
Bill Pollard
Sorry… I meant to include that in the original msg… 7001 was pulling the all HW train. This would have been before “The Eagle” (Missouri River Eagle) began operation. 7000 and 7001 were delivered October 22, 1939 and were put into service on existing passenger trains (the first being on the “River Line” passenger train from St. Louis to Kansas City.) They were later assigned to trains 5-6, Kay-See Flyer, which would become the Eagle. The Eagle began operating March 10, 1940, so for this particular instance, Oct 1939-March 1940 would be the “window of opportunity” to see a streamlined diesel pulling heavyweight cars. I feel sure it happened on other parts of the railroad. Photos exist showing the Sunshine Special with diesels and a mostly HW green consist with a few Eagle painted cars.
Bill Pollard[attachment=0:silbajrp]Kay-See-Flyer-2-2-1940_0001.jpg[/attachment:silbajrp]
Tim,
It happened both ways, but as you note, the “window of opportunity” was fairly small. I have a photo of Train 15, Kay-See Flyer, leaving STL 2-2-1940 with a string of all heavyweight, all “Pullman” green cars (will appear in my presentation in Jeff City in a few weeks if you are attending.) There are quite a few photos of steam pulling mixed consists, some green, some Eagle colors.
Bill PollardWhen did C&EI 84 (MP 1776 2nd) lose its torpedo tubes on the roof? Was that done at the time it was rebuilt as 1776, or had they come off earlier?
Bill, thanks for posting the diagrams of the units. I hope that those can be digitized as part of the MPHS archives.
Bill Pollard
Does anyone have drawings of the lettering on these bicentennial locomotives? They were painted at North Little Rock, but one report suggests that the detailed lettering was handled by an outside contractor for Baird Signs in Little Rock. Can anyone provide additional information on how this design was developed and who might have been involved in the lettering?
Bill Pollard
Never say never, but on the trains south from St. Louis, I do not recall seeing N&W equipment in the 1960s. Its possible that the trains west, particularly the overnight mail train, might have carried N&W cars on a more regular basis, but if so, I wonder why they would not have been routed over the former Wabash line rather than MoP?
Bill Pollard
Really nice job on the scratchbuilding project. Congrats on the contest award.
There was and is an art to getting a good clean impression from a wax seal. Those fortunate enough to have a torch, wax and seal can attest to the issues involved, ranging from wax that is too hot, not enough wax on the paper, wax sticking in the letters of the seal, etc. Back in the day, it wasn’t necessary to produce a “perfect” impression such as was achieved in this case – it was only necessary to get a sufficient imprint to identify the originating station. I’ve seen as many as four wax seals from a single station, although its likely than not all four were in use at the same time. For MP stations, one seal would have the name of the railroad and the name of the station, another version might have the railroad name and only the station number, yet another would have the name and station for the express company, and yet another would be a “public” seal, usually used by the public when sealing valuables for shipment by registered express.
Bill Pollard
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